poppy fascism,,,,,,or not. your thoughts?

i'm with jon snow on this:

look!
he said he'd be wearing a poppy at the appropriate time,
a remberance service,
or someting along those lines.
i think that it would be reasonable to assume that he will have paid for that poppy,
thereby contributing to the money raised by the sale of poppies,
yes?

i crossed the road yesterday,
to put into a collection-box,
i declined the offer of a poppy,
i don't do symbolism.
so what's that make me?

i go along with his view that wars have been waged,
especially the world wars,
that he would have the freedom,
WE would have the freedom,
and the right,
to choose.

people wear poppies,
for a whole range of reasons,
pride.remembrance,nationalism,just to be seen wearing one.

some,to ensure that we (as a nation) never forget(and that to me,is the one that matters ).
whatever.
does it really matter if you wear one or not?

poppy-wearing,or not, maketh the man eh ?

I wear one.But it is a choice isnt it.We should never forget the fallen of two world wars especially and help younger sevicemen and their families who have suffered.

i agree totally mg.
but wtf has a little bit of red paper got to do with anything?
and yes i know history of the poppy.

its symbolic. even though you dont do symbolism.signs, symbols have been around since fuck knows when.

yes mg,
but it HAS to come down to personal choice.

yes i said it was a choice.jeremy paxman.

the dilemma for me,
is my disdain for symbolism versus displaying national pride,and support for the fallen.

but again,
i don't feel that i should have to prove it.

wearing a poppy proves nothing.

paxman indeed.

tutt'tutt'tutt.

Fucks me off no end that it's supposed to symbolise the sacrifices of those who died fighting in some foreign field and that's it.

If it does, why do you donate for it? To be stark, they're dead and there are no pockets in a shroud.

The point of the poppy for me has become the point of the Poppy Appeal - it's not for those who didn't come back, it's for those who did. WW1 veterans have all died out now but the older they were, the more they deserved some dignity in the years they lived out. The RBL is there to provide that and that's what the poppy is for. We're approaching the same position now for WW2 veterans - if you served you're in your early eighties at the least.

Look after the living, you're a long time dead. I know someone who was there when they liberated Belsen, for example - how do you carry what you saw there around with you?

The poppy is an emblem of choice. It fucks me off no end that anyone on the box to a man is practically forced to wear one. How many of them will attend a Remembrance day service, though? THAT'S the hypocrisy because whereas I don't wear one (more out of absent-mindedness than anything else) I will be at a service. I'll lay odds at the rest.

Poppy fascism isn't in the wearing of it or not; it's the fucking wanky attitude in this country that you have to be seen to be doing the right thing rather than actually doing it (I don't even know the gallery they're playing to - pandering ultimately irritates the living shit out of everyone, so they can't think that pandering to some supposedly upset unknown complainer is valid). And that is nothing to do with the poppy.

Like Douglas Adams said about developing the wheel

Er, yeah, well we’re having a little, er, difficulty here…
Difficulty?! It’s the single simplest machine in the entire universe!
Well alright mister wise guy, if you’re so clever you tell us what colour it should be!

People have lost sight of the real reason for everything and they're concerned with image, not substance. Were it not so serious and desperate, it'd be laughable.

very well put mate.

I have my moments, Eric. It is one of my bêtes noires that this country is full of people who are metaphorically looking at everyone else's plate and complaining that their perfectly fine dinner has possibly less gravy on it than the bloke in the corner while they aren't looking at the restaurant owner who is stealing off their own plate.

Fucking sheep

I have a poppy this year. Daft bird tried to attach it to my Barbour, I said you'll ruin the waterproofing. Put it on my bag instead.

What fucking annoyed me was the BBC started wearing poppies before the RBL announced the start of the official campaign. BBC said it was personal choice, err no it wasn't every cunt on the news programmes were wearing them. And they were pristine, so where did they get them from?

Anyways, I might go to the Cenotaph on Sunday for my granddads. Alf was a Royal Marine and saw action in Africa, France & Italy, the poor fucker never spoke about the shit he witnessed, fuck knows what that does to a person. Arthur was a Lt Cmdr in the Royal Navy and probably had it a bit cushier. Still both proud servants of this country.

Lest we forget.

Local service and war memorial for me, Chips. My old man won't be out this year (bigger parade and would be walking) for the first time in as long as I can remember (if indeed ever) as he's not well enough. Both grandfathers died over 25 years ago. Managed to get one's medals back after some fucker stole them in the late seventies after his death; the other, quite spectacularly in WW2, was too old to run around Northern France and was in fact an ARP warden My old man was a relative rarity - a successful evacuee to Wales. Mum wasn't evacuated - you didn't argue with her mother and she stayed, hiding out in a coal hole when the sirens went off smaller than my kids now...

The evacuation, quite strangely, was one of the causes of the welfare state after the war, not only because of the perceived poverty of the inner city kids but also because these farm kids in Wales were fucking huge, fed on milk, eggs and meat while the other kids were snotty little starved waifs.

Went to Whitehall this morning. Was moved to see a serviceman in his 20's in a wheelchair with no legs along side the older vets. Very moving especially when the cannons go off at 11 and the whole street went silent.

Fair turnout as usual here.

A stately flypast of two prop planes as well at 11am, a biplane and a monoplane (that to my untrained eye looked like a spotter). Man next to me, a shade older than me was wearing a GSM (18-62 - my old man fought the War Office twenty times longer than he served to get his because they didn't recognise the early years of Suez until Blair was in power) and (I presume) his grandfather's medals on his other breast. I had my boy with me and thought "I'm glad that isn't me". My old man's still around to wear them.

BERT,
there's a case,
a very good,and obvious case for remembering.

but,
mmmmmmmmmmmmm.
is it healthy?

and i know there's the "look!move on eh?" lobby.

i'm sorry if this offends.

i'm just a stay at home type who probably thinks too much.

yes,
it helps raise cash,and rightly so.

but too many want to be seen wearing the poppy,
while not really giving a shit,
y'know?

Not one for waking up and thinking "have I got a poppy on" as I said before, Eric.

As for remembering, I'd say yes. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance after all. If you don't remember, somewhere along the line, you make the same mistakes. I'd happily strap on a rifle to shoot fascists if asked, for example, but I'd rather not do it in my own front yard to my co-citizens when it's preventable.

yep,
you are right of course.

but it's being tarnished,
and hijacked by a vulgar,tacky element.

that all good causes suffer i suppose.
just grubby little hangers on.
and some not so little.

but haven't we been forfeiting that freedom ever since?
how much freedom do we really have?
how equiped are for that sort of a fight now?
and would we,as a nation,have the stomach for it?

To a degree, Eric. Thing is, the ceremony I was at this morning wasn't for the eyes of the media and so the people who were there were the people who wanted to be there.

In terms of the "be seen" brigade, the RBL have already dipped into next year's poppies because of demand. At that rate, "be seen" won't come into it as everyone will be wearing one anyway.

erixter wrote:but haven't we been forfeiting that freedom ever since?
how much freedom do we really have?
how equiped are for that sort of a fight now?
and would we,as a nation,have the stomach for it?

Can only speak for myself and I won't stand for unfairness. Not in my nature. It can make me unpopular. I'm comfortable with that.

yeah,me to .
probably not as brave as you.
but i'm with you.

fuckin flood control.